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Thread: Let's play a hand together

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    Patrick 'paddyjim''s Avatar
    Patrick 'paddyjim' is offline Senior Member
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    Default Let's play a hand together

    This came up in the MicroMillions Main Event

    The raiser has been fairly aggressive - stats were 23/21

    What's your move pre-flop?

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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
    J_Verschueren is offline They call me "J"
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    NLHE, blinds t1600/t800/t200 ?

    What do you know about Player 7? -is he the kind of player who might squeeze light if you just flat the raise?

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    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    Wow, I don't like these spots. If he is aggressive as you say and likes to c-bet, I'll shave a little off of what I like to have when set-mining and call here. Being 12-13x is a good stack to flat with IF you feel you are barely ahead of his range... sounds like that might be the case here. Still, he is in fairly early position, I may feel more like treating 99 like 55 here.

    If the BB jams and the PFR folds, I call. If the PFR calls or jams then I bail. Same if there is a reraise behind me, I get out.

    If we had say, oh, 17-23k or so in our stack I'd would consider jamming preflop, depends how I feel about his range. If he has been raising from this position often enough I'll take the plunge. Is the min-raise standard for him though?
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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Amazing how Rycky and myself honed in on the player who really mattered in this hand and how we would respond... regardles of your holding.

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    Why does the BB matter so much? Is it because with the minraise he's getting pot odds to call with ATC? Is it because he's the short stack? I'm not sure I'm understanding your reasoning guys, but I'm keen to learn :)

    I'd be tempted to 3-bet to 11000 here to isolate. It's a fair chunk of your stack, but It gives you the betting lead over Player 1 (which is a bonus if he's aggressive) and the chances are you'd be going HU to the flop, or 3-ways if the BB jams and Player 1 calls. I wouldn't be too unhappy with that with pocket 9s, although I'd be much happier if I saw a 9 on the flop ;)
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    Patrick 'paddyjim''s Avatar
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    I think they are suggesting a call in the hope of inducing the BB to shove...

    Anyway, I did call.

    Now what?

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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambini View Post
    Why does the BB matter so much? Is it because with the minraise he's getting pot odds to call with ATC? Is it because he's the short stack? I'm not sure I'm understanding your reasoning guys, but I'm keen to learn :)
    It is to do with stacksize, yes. BB has the perfect stack to re-steal all-in if the pot is raised to him. Futhermore, a loose player opening for a minraise doesn't necessarily mean a lot of strenght and us flatting hides we have a top 10 hand, so an observant, experienced player might consider this a good situation for a squeeze play, i.e. raising all-in, hoping OR will fold because he's been raised and doesn't close the betting and we will fold because we don't have a monster either. BB will obviously do this with his value hands, most of the hands the loose player might have opened with and some stone cold bluffs like medium suited connecters and stuff. So, by flatting, we could possibly isolate ourselves against a weaker range and we avoid putting in a raise and possibly having to fold if BB 4-bets and OR 5-bets. And the worst thing that can happen if nobody raises is we take a flop in position w/ 99, which is never a bad thing.

    It's just one of those plays which needs to be in your arsenal if you play sit&go's and one of the things you want to look out for (if a player squeezes a lot) while doing so. Though, now I've written it down, I'm kind of thinking it's maybe borderline fancy play syndrome.

    Quote Originally Posted by bambini View Post
    I'd be tempted to 3-bet to 11000 here to isolate. It's a fair chunk of your stack, but It gives you the betting lead over Player 1 (which is a bonus if he's aggressive) and the chances are you'd be going HU to the flop <snip>
    Eeeek... way too big. 7k-ish will do the job just as well if he was just stealing and we want to keep the weak aces in villain's range, just in case he pairs his kicker.

    Anyhow, seeing as we don't know how triggerhappy BB is, I'm leaning toward the raise option as well (I'm sure no one has seriously thought about folding), because, with the lead, we can pretty much expect villain to c-bet his entire range. Should we then choose to re-pop him as a (semi-) bluff, we'd need to put about 1/3rd of our stack in, which is flirting with the commitment threshold. I suppose we could just overbet jam in that case, but that's playing chicken with cards.
    Last edited by J_Verschueren; Mar 28th, 2013 at 12:53 AM.

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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick 'paddyjim' View Post
    I think they are suggesting a call in the hope of inducing the BB to shove...

    Anyway, I did call.

    Now what?
    Good flop for nines, action and potsize suck (I should have calculated it better before making my earlier reply, but anyway...). I don't like peeling, because there are a lot of cards that can come which will force us to shut down. Just raising is pointless, because if villain then jams we get nearly 3:1 on the rest of our chips. Not a fan of overbet jamming either, so... crying fold.

    There still a lot we beat, but my feeling is it's become a reverse implied odds situation.

  9. #9
    RyckyRych's Avatar
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    The BB can't resteal with his stack, its too small. He'll be called by one of us due to the odds. The key is that the BB has less than 10-12BBs (we can argue 13-14BBs) and really should be playing shove or fold. Now, if he had that top range of 12-14BBs then yes, he does have FE and would have a nice resteal/squeeze situation.

    I did not go for a reraise here for two reasons. One, our stack size is a little smaller than I like. If we reraise to about 7500-8000 and get called, there is about 20k in the pot? I think so. So we get to c-bet about 10-12k and get shoved on. Can we really fold? We've dumped half our stack and would be getting good odds to call. Our stack-to-pot ratio just isn't large enough to give us comfortable options.

    Two, I am not sure we are ahead of his range. We could be and I think from what we determined previously is that 99 might be slightly ahead. I have learned that with a stack size of about 10-14 times the raise flatting IP when barely ahead of a range is a good plan, even with a hand as strong as AK (range dependant of course). A side note, this is also a GREAT spot to flat with AA. With AA you could call, wait for the c-bet and then jam over him on really any flop. That way you are giving him decent odds to call and you have the look of a semi-bluff.

    Now, as played, does this guy c-bet 100% of the time and shut down on the turn if he misses? Do we have a range? If we have a good inclination that we can float this flop and watch him check the turn, we could try to take it away. I'd prefer to be deeper stacked for that move but if our reads are good I can see it work. If his range is PP heavy (especially if he wouldn't raise with 88-22) then I think we just play it like we intended (a set-mine) and give it up.

    In other words, it depends on his range. If you think he has TT+ about 40% of the time or less, you could call. A riskier move is the raise to about 10-11k, but I'd hate to see a call. I'd likely shut down and hope to see a river/showdown if that happened. If he jammed over our raise, I'd let it go.

    Like I said earlier, I don't like these spots.
    Last edited by RyckyRych; Mar 28th, 2013 at 03:53 AM.
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  10. #10
    Queso's Avatar
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    Default Let's play a hand together

    I call pre hoping to flop a set. If there are more callers after me or, if the BB jams, I'm still getting odds to set mine. The only spot in which I fold is if the OR jams after the BB shoves.
    Since I invested my chips prudently hoping to flop a set, I now continue that wise financial management by folding to any bet when my set misses. I then order an "Easy Living" from the waitress who has a crush on me, and move on to the next hand.
    Oh, sorry, it's online. We don't have that here in America anymore.

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