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Thread: Always remember to count your back door outs too!

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    Patrick 'paddyjim''s Avatar
    Patrick 'paddyjim' is offline Senior Member
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    Default Always remember to count your back door outs too!

    A fun hand!

    Don't take life too seriously - you'll never get out of it alive

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    Tim's Avatar
    Tim
    Tim is offline quintessential chopbuster
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    A straight / flush. Not quite a straight flush but nice nonetheless.

    FISH!

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    Nice hand. I think I would have folded the flop but it turned out great for you - goes to show that tenacity can be a benefit in this game :) It also shows that the guy with the pocket tens should have played his hand more aggressively.
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambini View Post
    Nice hand. I think I would have folded the flop but it turned out great for you - goes to show that tenacity can be a benefit in this game :) It also shows that the guy with the pocket tens should have played his hand more aggressively.
    No, the guy with the ducks should have.

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    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    I don't see much wrong from either villain. Pretty dry board overall, I can see TT playing this slow. Ducks actually bet out and you could say TT also could have done the same into a limped pot. Now, if J is refering to the play on the turn, yes, as Ducks I'd have isolated the short all-in once the diamond hit.... though by then it was likely too late. Still, Ducks had no real reason to fear that flop. Could he have isolated TT on the flop after the check-raise? Sure. However, I'm willing to go broke set/set. Hero has to realize he has 4 outs after all that. I didn't do the math but considering how short the aggressor, TT, was, implied odds are low and true odds can't be there even with the BD draws. Then again, maybe it was... I didn't add it up.

    Then again, I don't play anymore.
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    bambini's Avatar
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    Default Always remember to count your back door outs too!

    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post

    Then again, I don't play anymore.
    You always say that at the end of an insightful and interesting post :)

    The way I see it, Mr Pocket Tens should have 3x raised preflop. He probably would have got the OP to fold A4s and there's an outside chance that the other guy would fold 2s (albeit unlikely). In the end, this would have meant that TT would have won the hand and it probably would be a large pot as it would have been set vs set.

    Reminds me of a hand I played in a home game a few months back. My buddy is dealt pocket queens in the SB and opts to limp. I've got 64o and check. The flop comes down 235 rainbow so I've just flopped the nuts. My buddy then decided to play aggressively and of course went broke but if he'd have played his hand more aggressively PF rather than waiting til the flop I'd have folded.

    Moral of the story is that you should NEVER LIMP. Well, almost never, there are exceptions to any rule in poker :)
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

  7. #7
    RyckyRych's Avatar
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    I have no issue with the limp from EP with tens, some will raise, some won't, and even in a couple SNG/MTT spots I can understand folding (this is a ring game though). At a full-ring table I can see playing any PP, just be sure that if you must call a raise you are getting correct implied odds to do so if your main plan is to set-mine.

    I think there are times to open-limp in poker, this can be one of them. Raising is by no means a bad idea and for some people it is probably the preferred action.
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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post
    <snip> Now, if J is refering to the play on the turn, yes, as Ducks I'd have isolated the short all-in once the diamond hit.... though by then it was likely too late. Still, Ducks had no real reason to fear that flop. Could he have isolated TT on the flop after the check-raise? Sure. However, I'm willing to go broke set/set.
    Hero would have had to call $4,18- into $6,65- on the turn, too much seeing as having 12 outs, he needed better than 3.8:1. In a cash game it doesn't matter whether "it's too late" and villain calls anyway and wins. If he payed a bad price for that particular "miracle" card, you win and he loses in the long run.

    Personally, I would re-raise on the flop, though. Not because I would instantly realise I was beat, but because I play with total disdain for shorties in microstakes cashgames (this is most probably a leak, I know). If someone check-raises me, leaving themselves less than a potsize bet behind, my knee-jerk reaction is to put them all in ("Like your hand? -good, 'cuz you're playing it all-in!" ). I'm also looking toward the full-stacked opponent still in the hand and I want to make damn sure he doesn't get anywhere near odds (expressed or implied) to outdraw me. And barrel the turn if he doesn't give up.

  9. #9
    RyckyRych's Avatar
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    Like I said, I didn't do the math. Yeah, if he c-r for over half his stack and I'm playing the hand then yes, get it in. I don't see that as an issue unless you have people to act behind you.
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