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Thread: Live hand

  1. #1
    J_Verschueren's Avatar
    J_Verschueren is offline They call me "J"
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    Default Live hand

    This is a hand from early on in the pizza joint game. As you may recall it plays as 25NLHE, but the buy-in is 50,- Euros. I'll describe the hand and share my reads on the player involved. My thought process will follow in a later post when we've hopefully got some feedback going.

    As I said, it's early on in the evening and we've started 5-handed. Villain is one of the better players in the game. He has a couple of peculiarities/bad habits and generally plays a loose moderately aggressive game, but he doesn't give much away in the way of physical or timing tells and he is capable of switching it up and surprising people. I suspect he's a 1st/2nd level thinker (not much point in thinking any further in this game, tbh).
    I have never seen him open or raise pre-flop with a premium hand; I've never seen him 3-bet preflop. Once he's invested he rarely folds to a single raise and calls at least 1/4th of the time when it's re-raised behind him. I'd also say he defends his blind to single raise from late position at least 1/3rd of the time (if not more). Post flop he floats a ton regardless of whether he's in position or not and he tends to overvalue catching a piece (imo., but seeing as a lot of fit or fold goes on in this game, it may be working for him). He almost invariably slowplays his monsters (sets or better) to the river and I highly suspect, to compensate, the river (check-)raise with air is in his arsenal.
    One caveat: he is not usually my big blind. To situate, when the game is full, he's usually EP2 or MP1 when I'm BTN. So we rarely square off.

    Hero is CO with about 47,-
    Villain is BB and covers.

    Hero has:

    Pre-flop (pot 0,35-):

    1fold, Hero bets 0,75-. 2 folds, villain calls.

    Flop (pot 1,60-):

    Villain checks.
    Hero bets 1,25-, villain calls.

    Turn (pot 4,10-) :

    Villain checks.
    Hero bets 2,25-, villain calls

    River (pot 8,60-):

    Villain bets 12,-
    Hero?

  2. #2
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    Default

    I'm a sucker, I call. The overbet is usually not a boat, unless this is his "value bet" I'm calling.
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    Well, it's been a while, so my thoughts as I played and afterwards.

    Pre-flop is a standard open I would say, as any suited broadway would be. Villain calls, we know he defends a lot against late position openers, so he can have pretty much anything. We can also not discount premiums as this guy doesn't reraise ever (well, not in the 30+ hours I've played with him anyway).

    Good flop for my hand, I cbet this almost always, so I do now as well. Villain calls. Again: he floats a lot, so that does say much.

    Turn card could have improved my opponent to 2nd best (KJ, KT, K9s, are certainly in his range), so I thought I could bet again to get value from those hands along with his Ax's, underpairs, QJ, QT, etc.
    AK, KQ and JT improve to beat us along with AQ/A6 and sets, obviously, but we still have our spade draw against those. He may fold some underpairs, but then again I've seen him be pretty stubborn with those against some players, so I don't know.
    Like I also said, villain overvalues catching a piece and one of the ways he does this is by making "tester" raises on the flop or on the turn when he catches said piece. Seeing as with monsters the raise doesn't come untill the river, I felt that if my bet got raised I could call down and, barring some unlikely help for my opponent on the river, be "good" at showdown most of the time. However villain just calls, which is slightly worrying as this somewhat skews his range to monsters/not much at all in my experience.

    River fills my flush, but pairs the board... poop. The good news is I beat all of his Ax's, except AK, and JT again. The bad news is some of the hands we can't readily discount him having have improved to full houses or better. The bet is unusual, his m.o. for value is usually the check-raise, but then again he may have noticed me check some fairly big hands behind when an obvious draw came in. This is due to a number of chasers in this game who immediatly glance at their chips when they hit their card. In this case I think I might have made a block- / thin valuebet if he had checked.
    Now though... does he show up with Ax, KJ, KT, QJ, QT or some other random hand (diamonds, maybe?) often enough for me to be able to profitably call this bet? -while certainly in his pre-flop range, would all of them make it to the river? -would he really be so passive with all of them? -I highly doubted it.
    Does he read me for an ace and is he trying to push me off what he thinks is a split? -or does he have it and wants me to think he's trying to push me off a split? He's seen me call bets like that, but, again, only against players who are rife with physical tells and villain was playing statue.

    Meanwhile I've taken up quite a bit of time, new players have arrived and are asking what the hold-up is and I really hate doing these kind of card combination problems at the table, so, in the end, I just thought "f**k it, this is a good game, I don't need to do high variance plays against this guy". I turned up my , said "big fold" and slid my hand into the muck (I don't know why I did that, because, in this game, one can "sell" one's hand for 10,- Euro... so there's a non-zero chance I could have turned this hand into a profit, actually).
    Anyway, villain jumped up from the table, angryly smacked down his and exclaimed "NO!!! NO!!! you can't have folded a flush!! Jezus Christ!! I had you all the way!!".

    So, in this particular hand, I ended up making the right play and looking like a genius, but, we're not about that. So, ever since, I've been questioning my train of thought, as I clearly acted partly out of emotion, certainly on the river. Online and multitabling, I will call a similar bet (I play smaller online than I do live because I find people are sharper regardless of the stakes); I might not even take a deep breath before I do.
    Live, at a single table, however, I find other dynamics come into play and I'm unsure of whether I can take the long run line, given what I've observed. But, on the other hand, what I've observed is by necessity a small sample. Take this guy... what I know about him is basically what I've seen him do against other people, we don't have "a lot" of hands together. Am I right to make assumptions about him based on what he usually does, when, in fact, he's in a hand with me (which is sort of an exception)? -I do rate this guy as more or less as observant as me, so how do I handle this?
    I was hoping for some of the more experienced live players to weigh in on this.
    Last edited by J_Verschueren; Dec 18th, 2014 at 04:23 AM.

  4. #4
    RyckyRych's Avatar
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    Wow, so the overbet is a new bet from this guy? I guess you had a good feel for his intentions since it was a live game. As I said, I usually call but I played online and my experiences in the past was that these bets were more often a worse flush than a boat/the nuts. Seems you learned something about this fella.
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  5. #5
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    In the opening post the flop is one card short (the all important Ace is missing)!

    Nice read... but I don't know whether this was +ev or not. It might be an idea to crunch the numbers and take a closer look.

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Verschueren View Post
    I turned up my As, said "big fold" and slid my hand into the muck (I don't know why I did that, because, in this game, one can "sell" one's hand for 10,- Euro... so there's a non-zero chance I could have turned this hand into a profit, actually).
    Although sometimes tempting, I wouldn't show big folds. It tells the table that you can be pushed off hands.

    But I'm curious... what do you mean by "you can sell one's hand for 10 Euros"? I don't understand.

  6. #6
    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    In the opening post the flop is one card short (the all important Ace is missing)!

    Nice read... but I don't know whether this was +ev or not. It might be an idea to crunch the numbers and take a closer look.
    I did and, in a vacuum, it's a terrible fold. Even if you give villain just trips or better, I get 55% equity. Give him a counterfeited two pair and a couple airballs and it's 75%. Thing is, it was a live setting, so I couldn't bust out Equilab to figure it out and, realistically, I could only see villain playing the nuts or the straight the way he did. Which I thought made me a huge dog, given I have a blocker to the straight in my hand. Turns out it's only a slight dog at 48% (counterintuitive result). 1.7:1 on the call weren't great odds, but that still means I only needed to win 37% of the time, so: terrible fold, all told (he's a pot and... ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    Although sometimes tempting, I wouldn't show big folds. It tells the table that you can be pushed off hands.
    I agree I shouldn't have done it in the 5-handed setting, but, trust me, in this game you want people to think they can push you off a hand. Have you ever seen that "Mike Caro's Pro Poker Tells"-video? -some of the players in the game really are that bad at hiding their intentions. It's hard not to laugh sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    But I'm curious... what do you mean by "you can sell one's hand for 10 Euros"? I don't understand.
    You have to show your hand if someone pays you 10,- Euro for it. And a rabbit hunt is 2,- Euro to the snack/drinks fund. House rules.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Verschueren View Post
    You have to show your hand if someone pays you 10,- Euro for it. And a rabbit hunt is 2,- Euro to the snack/drinks fund. House rules.
    I've never heard of such a thing before. I like it. But I don't imagine you get paid very often for this, considering the stakes.

  8. #8
    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I've never heard of such a thing before. I like it. But I don't imagine you get paid very often for this, considering the stakes.
    It's fairly rare. What usually happens is several players chip in.

    Sorry for the late reply. I'll make it up by posting another hand shortly.

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