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Thread: My first bad beat :(

  1. #1
    BoonYNWA is offline Junior Member
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    Unhappy My first bad beat :(

    Let me set the scene.

    I'm playing a 40 man tournament and your's truly is sitting in 2nd place with chips valued at 4,900 with the tournament average being around 1,500. The current leader is on 5,200 and is sat on my table. The chip leader is in mid position and I'm the big blind.

    My hand KJo My Opponents hand Q5o

    He raises and it's folded to me and i call.

    Flop AQT rainbow

    Bingo!!!

    I raise half the pot and he calls so i expect he's got a pair but probably not Aces as he's been playing very aggressive.

    Turn 5 and the board is full rainbow

    I bet about a quarter of the pot. He raises and leaves himself 1,500 chips so I re-raise all-in. He calls and we goto the River.

    River Q

    This obviously gives him a full house and he wins the pot.

    Would anyone play it differently? I set out with the aim of getting all his chips in the pot maybe if i'd of slow-played it to the River it may of stopped me going bust.

  2. #2
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    I can see why you called, however I would have folded a hand like KJo here. Its too often dominated by hands that would normally be in the range of a mid-position raiser. Post-flop, well, I likely would have checked to the raiser and called. As played, why bet so little? Sounds like you either check-raise all-in if he bets or simply lead out like you mean it (which could mean going all-in, depending on the stacks).

    In any case, you got the money in good. Oh well.
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  3. #3
    BoonYNWA is offline Junior Member
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    I only raised half the pot after the flop as i didn't want him to think I had Aces and wanted to get him pot committed later in the hand. Was this a mistake? I may of been able to take the pot down moving all-in after the flop.

  4. #4
    Queso's Avatar
    Queso is offline Check To The Possible
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    I can think of lots of things to do differently.

    1. KJ offsuit is going to do poorly, in general, out of position, against a mid-position player's range. You don't have to defend every single hand, especially in a heads-up pot where your opponent will have a positional advantage. Multiway? That's different. Against only one other player? It's a fold for me.

    2. Chip stack considerations. It's never a good idea to tangle with the only other person who can knock you out of a tournament. Especially with weak cards and weak position.

    3. Flopping the nuts, why would you now bet into the raiser? This is one of the worst plays you can make in poker. It's called "donk betting" or a "probe bet" or a "feeler bet", and it's bad for several reasons:

    A. Most of the time, this bet is made by a player who called a pre-flop bet, thinks the flop missed the original raiser, and now wants to bet to see how the original raiser (the "OR") is going to respond. In other words, it's a question-- and a weak one at that-- "Um, I have a pair (or a draw, or AK, or whatever), and I think you missed the flop, am I good here?"

    B. So this question lets the OR play perfectly against you. He can now emphatically say "Um, no, I have you crushed" with a big reraise, and so now you have essentially done his betting for him, thank you very much, or he can say "Yup, you're right, I have nothing", and then cheerfully fold, not even having to lose the bet he almost certainly would have made if you checked to him.

    C. Even if he just calls (which is terrible because he is now conceding the lead in the hand to you), he's in the same great situation on the turn. He can check behind for free cards if you slow down, he can fold if you show further strength with another bet, and he can reraise if the turn helps his hand. No matter what you do, he can play perfectly against you because he has position on you. There is literally no play you can make out of position against the original raiser which gives you any kind of advantage in the hand.

    Not to mention, a half-pot bet makes it much easier for him to continue in the hand no matter what. One of the keys of poker is learning to put your opponent to a meaningful decision. Calling half-pot here means nothing to him. You haven't put any pressure on him whatsoever.

    The way to get all-in would have been to check the flop, let him bet, then check raise him back, and if he calls, shove any turn that doesn't pair the board (which could possibly give him a full house).

    4. With the nuts still intact on the turn, now what? What does a check look like now? A trap. Having taken the lead in the hand, you now have to bet for value. 1/4 pot does not accomplish this.

    5. And you're never going to avoid going bust in this hand, against an opponent who has you covered. In fact, you would happily call his all-in bet, because none of his hands that could have you beat make sense. To reach a full house on the river, he would have to have:

    AA: Would he raise with this hand, then just call your flop bet? Absolutely not.
    QQ: Same thing.
    TT: Same thing.
    AQ: Same thing.
    Q5: How in God's holy name does he raise pre-flop with Q5???? He doesn't. He never shows up with this hand. Period. You happily call his all-in. You get all your chips in the middle as fast as you can.

    When he wins, and you bust, you just laugh. You type "nice hand" in the chat box. And you enter the next tournament. All you can do is make good decisions. You can't account for an opponent's terrible decisions that miraculously give him the win. And what were his chances of winning? 3.2% on the flop. 9% on the turn. That's how you get your money in good in poker. So you think nothing of it and you move on.

    On the other hand, if you yourself played it poorly, then you have lots of questions to ask yourself, and much work to do. And that's how you get good at this game.

  5. #5
    BoonYNWA is offline Junior Member
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    Awesome post and a lot of information there.

    I get what your saying about pressure and tough decisions and must admit I didn't think about it at the time. I just saw the nuts and flung head first without really thinking what may be around the corner.

    I haven't got to betting for value yet (tonights reading for sure). I've also been guilty of "Donk" betting as well so I'm glad you caught it early. Lots to learn still and it's good to get the feedback on how I played and will definitely use the Check-raise in future.

    Thanks

  6. #6
    Queso's Avatar
    Queso is offline Check To The Possible
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    A check-raise is just one of the ways you can extract money from your opponent here. You also could have check-called the flop, then check-call, check-raise, bet-call, bet-shoved the turn, etc. It's entirely situational and player dependent. But thinking ahead to what you'll do on future streets depending on the action will be critical to your success in poker.

  7. #7
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    Long story short : Fold KJo there. :)

    Nice post Q, I'm way too lazy to do it anymore.
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  8. #8
    Queso's Avatar
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    I forgot, of course 55 would make a boat on the river. He might have raised with it, highly unlikely to call a flop bet with it. And of course a holding of QQ would make quads on the river. Anyway.

  9. #9
    Queso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post

    Nice post Q, I'm way too lazy to do it anymore.
    lol. It's just that I spew words as easily as I do chips.

    However, it's nice to back on my rightful throne as the person with the most posts in the last 30 days. Back in the day, I think I went something like a year without relinquishing that title.

  10. #10
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    Playing for stats again, are we? Superficial prick. :)

    Actually it has been nice to see the boards see some activity here in the last few weeks. New blood churns thru the forum's veins.
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