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Thread: Aces, How You Doin'?

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    Queso's Avatar
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    Default Aces, How You Doin'?

    You raise with aces in the early stages of a tournament. Unknown player calls out of position, the flop comes 10 high, and he donk bets into you about the size of the pot.
    You don't think he has a set, because a set would probably try to check raise. And the board seems too raggy for any logical two pair combinations.
    In general, do you think the best play is to

    1. Shove all in and say "Well, if I'm beat I'm beat"

    2. Reraise and get all in if necessary

    3. Call all the way down, for all your chips if necessary

    4. Reraise and fold to a shove

    5. Call one street, fold if he shoves the turn

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    I'm not keen on your options. I would re-raise, but I'm not sure I'd want to get it all-in, nor fold. As it's early in the tournament I'm assuming we're deep enough to not have to commit all our chips on just a pair. Then again I'm guessing there was a shove involved in this hand and I sense a bad beat. Let's hear it

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    We're still doing fine against the bulk of his range and the board is raggy, so I like a call here to keep his range wide and re-evaluate turn.

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    Need more info. Since you said its early I;ll assume we might be too deep to shove so I like a call here most of the time, especially if its a rainbow flop. However, I might reraise here if the tournament is a slow enough structure. I say this since I would also reraise to a donk bet like this if I had AT, JJ and even stuff that missed like AK since I raised preflop, especially if I had raised from EP. If he folds I might actually show my aces to add credibility to my raises/bets (though I usually never show).
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

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    Default Aces, How You Doin'?

    I've asked a few of my playing buddies as well, the general consensus seems to be call and reevaluate on the turn. This is the line I took also. I put him on something like KT, JT, AT, whatever, and when another T hit the turn, I simply folded to his large turn bet. However, he could easily have also had JJ or QQ, even KK believe it or not, as a lot of the folks I play with wouldn't reraise with those holdings. I was just trying to tuck away a reasonable line of action for the future in this spot.
    I think I should have immediately 3x'ed him on the flop, although I then would've called if he shoved. It doesn't make sense to me that holdings which have me beat would raise into me on this flop.

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    Default Aces, How You Doin'?

    I will say it's interesting to me that several people wanted more information. One of my friends wanted to know if he was young, old, etc.

    I understand the general distinctions that can be drawn but as far as I'm concerned, you have all the information you need. It's early in the tournament. You raised with aces. A player donk bets into you. What do you do? How, in general, do you handle this?

    It's interesting to me because it seems to highlight two schools of divergent thought.

    One says, gather every single crumb of relevant information that you can, process it, and decide. Of course this would include past experience, what you've seen the player do in other situations, age, gender, how he holds his chips, etc, ad nauseum.

    The other says, I don't have to process that truckload of information because THIS is what I will always do in THAT situation. If I'm ahead the majority of the time I face this particular situation, then I'm going to go with it. I don't have to exhaust myself trying to see if his neck vein pulsed or he tossed his chips or if he carefully placed them or whatever. Of course, if I've seen him running mad bluffs all day or whatever, that factors in. But that's information I already have, not information I have to hunt for.

    It's interesting to me, that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Queso View Post
    I will say it's interesting to me that several people wanted more information. One of my friends wanted to know if he was young, old, etc.
    I'd like to know if the gentleman wearing glasses?

    I'd have given a straight answer of re-raise, but it wasn't an option. That is my preferred option in such situations, but I don't disagree with just calling.

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    Reraise was definitely an option, but what next if he reraises you right back? Fold, call, or shove?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Queso View Post
    Reraise was definitely an option, but what next if he reraises you right back? Fold, call, or shove?
    That's the point, what does raising a pot sized donkbet accomplish (in a tournament)? -it folds out hands you beat/have little chance of improving and provokes reraises with a nuts/air range, putting you to a tough decision.

    Because people will donk sets OOP. Their reasoning is the pre-flop raiser is going to be unpaired most of the time, the board hasn't helped those hands, so, in order to "protect" donking with medium pairs or flopped pairs-mediocre kicker, they have to donk with really strong hands as well. Do not expect sets to automatically go for the check/raise.

    If you want to have an "in a vacuum"-play (i.e. the absense of other tells/history), the flat is the one, imo. It burns less chips if you're behind (or villain catches on the turn and fires big again) and it gets value from/ropes along less astute villains who might put you on a nuts/air range and look you up later in the hand (if safe cards come off).
    Last edited by J_Verschueren; Oct 26th, 2013 at 01:51 AM.

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    Default Aces, How You Doin'?

    Thanks for the thoughts, guys.
    Lol

    I'm still undecided. Good points all around.

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