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Thread: Shoving your short stack

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    bambini's Avatar
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    Default Shoving your short stack

    This came up in a recent 6-max SNG for me.

    I was short stacked when the game was 5-handed after having to make a tricky fold. One guy busted out and so we were 4-handed. I spent a couple of orbits treading water with 5-8BBs. I hit the coldest of cold decks during this time (52o, 96s, etc.) and so I never came up with a hand worth shoving. The big stack was to my right and stole from the SB every time it folded round to her. Very annoying, as I just couldn't bring myself to 3-bet shove and put her to the test - she was sitting on 35BBs and would likely have called me with ATC. In the end I busted out when the other shortie shoved and I called him with KJo<A4o.

    So here's my question: at what point should I just say "to hell with it" and shove ATC? What sort of range should I be shoving with in these sorts of spots? At 5BBs I was prepared to shove with 22+, T9s+, J8s+, Q8+ and pretty much any K or A. Too wide? Too narrow?
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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambini View Post
    This came up in a recent 6-max SNG for me.

    I was short stacked when the game was 5-handed after having to make a tricky fold. One guy busted out and so we were 4-handed. I spent a couple of orbits treading water with 5-8BBs. I hit the coldest of cold decks during this time (52o, 96s, etc.) and so I never came up with a hand worth shoving. The big stack was to my right and stole from the SB every time it folded round to her. Very annoying, as I just couldn't bring myself to 3-bet shove and put her to the test - she was sitting on 35BBs and would likely have called me with ATC. In the end I busted out when the other shortie shoved and I called him with KJo<A4o.
    Well, usually, having position on the big stack is an advantage, because you can then re-steal from her, but given your stacksize that's not really an option.
    It could be she's stealing ATC BvB (haven't done the ICM, but she probably should put you all-in ATC if folded to in that respect), but we don't know that. We also don't know, if she's opening any two, she won't fold her worst hands to a 5-8BB ship. Given she didn't just put you in, she just might. That's where observation comes in. In a vacuum, however, you can't just rip it in ATC in this situation. For one thing, you need to consider the other stacksizes. Unless one or more players were desperately short as well (in which case I would tighten up considerably), I'd probably go with 66+, J9, Q8+, any king, any ace there. I'm leaving out the lower pairs and the suited stuff because you're basically calling all-in vs an ATC open. In this situation high card strength trumps suitedness and the lower pairs are either flipping or dominated too often. Those hands are fine for open shoving, but when calling off they're just not "the best hand" often enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by bambini View Post
    So here's my question: at what point should I just say "to hell with it" and shove ATC? What sort of range should I be shoving with in these sorts of spots? At 5BBs I was prepared to shove with 22+, T9s+, J8s+, Q8+ and pretty much any K or A. Too wide? Too narrow?
    1) you never shove or call all-in because "dang it all". There always has to be a real reason. Frustration is not a real reason.

    2) ATC shoves are for opening the pot, or for shipping over likely weak openers/limpers from late position or the blinds with a decent stack size (at least 10-15BB).

    It's impossible to give you any hard and fast rules about this, as there is so much stuff to consider, but typically, if folded to me, on that stacksize, I would go any pair, any 2 face cards, any ace except A6-A7, KTo and K9s+ from the CO. Any pair, any ace, any two cards above an 8 from the button and any 2 from the SB 4 handed. But, like I said, stack sizes and player tendencies are also important variables. It's hard to make a blanket recommendation.

    Maybe we should get some screen sharing software and sweat you a couple sessions to give you a feel?

  3. #3
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    You can do that with Skype. I'd sweat a few games if we can set up a good time.
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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post
    You can do that with Skype. I'd sweat a few games if we can set up a good time.
    Skype would work if Bambini is really good at condencing a lot of information into very few words. <g>

    Anyhow, I'm j_verschueren on Skype. Add me and shoot me a heads-up via mail or pm as to when I should turn it on.

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    RyckyRych's Avatar
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    Skype has screen sharing. We can see what he does. At least it had screen sharing when I used it last.
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    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post
    Skype has screen sharing. We can see what he does. At least it had screen sharing when I used it last.
    Oh... I didn't know that.

  7. #7
    bambini's Avatar
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    Sorry dudes, I've been away for a little while. Thanks for the kind offer of sitting in on a couple of sessions. I'm very up for that but I'm not really around for the next few weeks. I'll let you know when I'm back and maybe we can sort something out.
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

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