Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Another MTT spot

  1. #1
    bambini's Avatar
    bambini is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    266

    Default Another MTT spot

    Here's a hand I played yesterday. It was a 10-seater MTT. THe bubble had just burst, and I'd recently doubled up to put myself in second place.

    Table #51744001 - Tournament #28757557 Table #7
    Starting Hand #2414340218
    Start time of hand: 04 Sep 2013 20:46:17
    Last Hand #2414339221
    Game Type: HOLD'EM
    Limit Type: NO LIMIT
    Table Type: TOURNAMENT
    Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
    Blinds are now 600 / 1,200
    Button is at seat 7
    Seat 1: DanDanDany1 - 9,610
    Seat 2: badabingbambini - 35,548
    Seat 3: toonstar1977 - 383
    Seat 4: DJ1977 - 4,772
    Seat 5: thebigjan - 7,029
    Seat 6: eryset - 27,996
    Seat 7: jono2008 - 27,742
    Seat 8: CarlosFerreira07 - 33,473
    Seat 9: DiamondBln - 2,975
    Shuffling Deck
    Moving Button to seat 8
    DanDanDany1 posts ante of 150
    badabingbambini posts ante of 150
    toonstar1977 posts ante of 150
    DJ1977 posts ante of 150
    thebigjan posts ante of 150
    eryset posts ante of 150
    jono2008 posts ante of 150
    CarlosFerreira07 posts ante of 150
    DiamondBln posts ante of 150
    Pot sizes: 1,350
    DiamondBln posts small blind (600)
    DanDanDany1 posts big blind (1,200)
    Dealing Cards
    Dealing [K d][J h] to badabingbambini
    badabingbambini raises to 3,000
    thebigjan says good luck to DJ1977.
    toonstar1977 folds
    DJ1977 folds
    thebigjan folds
    eryset calls 3,000
    jono2008 folds
    DJ1977: thnx
    CarlosFerreira07 folds
    thebigjan: yw
    DiamondBln folds
    DanDanDany1 folds
    Pot sizes: 9,150
    Dealing Flop [7 c][9 h][Q h]
    badabingbambini bets 5,000
    eryset calls 5,000
    Pot sizes: 19,150
    Dealing Turn [A h]
    badabingbambini bets 10,000
    eryset raises to 19,846 (all-in)
    badabingbambini has requested more time
    badabingbambini is using the time bank
    badabingbambini has 30 seconds remaining in the time bank
    badabingbambini calls 19,846
    Pot sizes: 58,842
    badabingbambini shows [K d][J h]
    eryset shows [A d][A s]
    Dealing River [A c]
    Pot sizes: 58,842
    eryset has Four of a Kind: Aces
    eryset wins 58,842 with: Four of a Kind: Aces
    Seat 1: DanDanDany1 - 8,260
    Seat 2: badabingbambini - 7,552
    Seat 3: toonstar1977 - 233
    Seat 4: DJ1977 - 4,622
    Seat 5: thebigjan - 6,879
    Seat 6: eryset - 58,842
    Seat 7: jono2008 - 27,592
    Seat 8: CarlosFerreira07 - 33,323
    Seat 9: DiamondBln - 2,225
    End of Hand #2414340218


    Let me explain my thinking. I'd be grateful if you could point out if I went wrong anywhere.

    The table was pretty timid and I had a bunch of short stacks to act, so I figured I'd make a loose UTG raise in the hope of making a steal. Even if they called or shoved, I'd be risking only a few blinds to call. Anyhow, as you can see I got called by the other big stack. I also got called on the c-bet, so I was figuring on checking it down...but then the turn came and I picked up additional outs. I fired a second barrel, and then when he shoved on me I assumed he had an ace but was getting the right odds to call. Oops. I was left in terrible shape and busted out soon after.

    So aside from making a loose PF raise, did I make the right decisions? I can't help but thinking that despite having the right immediate odds to call the shove, perhaps I should have folded so that I could keep hold of some of my stack.
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

  2. #2
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    4,248

    Default

    I don't like this. I wouldn't be shoving KJo from UTG 10-handed if I was short, I don't want to face a shorty that might call me with it. I also do not really need to tangle with the three big stacks that have position on me with this hand.

    If this was the final table I could see doing this though. In that case there is a definite ICM advantage with a few of these micro stacks trying to hold on. Your leverage would be much greater.

    As played, I might have actually tried to check the flop and see if I could get a free look at my 4-outer, I don't mind the bet though. I would have checked the turn though and probably folded to a bet. As played, I actually think you could fold. He played it like a set or made hand, you have less than 10% to make yours. EDIT: I see now you did pick up a heart draw. While not the nuts, probably good enough to call with. I'd hate it though.
    Last edited by RyckyRych; Sep 6th, 2013 at 05:54 PM.
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

  3. #3
    bambini's Avatar
    bambini is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    266

    Default

    Thanks Rycky. It was indeed a loose PF raise, and I've definitely learnt my lesson. I really did hate making the call on the turn, too ;)

    I like the idea of checking the flop. Would have made sense and would have helped with pot control too.
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

  4. #4
    J_Verschueren's Avatar
    J_Verschueren is offline They call me "J"
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Antwerp, Belgium
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Ok, just so we're clear: 10-handed KJo is almost always an insta-muck UTG. On a table like you describe, you can go wider than a standard, tight aggressive UTG range, but do it with the hands that hit flops hard (sets, "hidden 2 pairs", strong draws), not with ones where you might catch a piece and still be 2nd best (top/2nd pair, ok kicker type hands).

    The c-bet, again: we're agreed, maybe not the brightest idea, but ok and the sizing was good. Because, on this flop, you need be able to limit villains range to made hands or good draws and you also need to narrow his odds because there's two cards to come and he's also got two streets left to get value if he has a less than stellar draw.

    The turn is where this hand unravels. Your bet violates 2 no-limit principles: 1) there is only one card and one street to come, so you can afford to offer villain better odds to continue with a draw, so you only need to bet around 1/3rd pot (or even just bet 5K again). 2) your bet entices a raise of the size you don't want to face (because you're priced in, but not loving it). Even though you're betting half his stack there, is he ever going to fold anything that beats you which he wouldn't have folded to the c-bet?

    Let's rewind and look at it from the line you should have taken when the steal didn't work. Check back the flop, indicating you've missed and, while there's no guarantee villain wouldn't have bet out on the turn, chances are, in this particular hand, he would have checked again, hoping the ace had hit you or you'd try to rep it. In that case you could have bet an even smaller amount than you actually did on the flop as played (say, 3.5K) and get the same (actually, a better) result. You would have still known you were beat, but could have easily mucked and preserved most of your stack when check-raised a decent amount (villain might just have clicked it back, i.e. minraised, which would have been annoying, but there's no way of telling your average villain at this level has that move up his sleeve, so... meh).

  5. #5
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    4,248

    Default

    Not sure, but from reading your last paragraph it seems that you think our hero has position post-flop, he does not.
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

  6. #6
    J_Verschueren's Avatar
    J_Verschueren is offline They call me "J"
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Antwerp, Belgium
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post
    Not sure, but from reading your last paragraph it seems that you think our hero has position post-flop, he does not.
    Yeah, my bad. So: check flop, bet small on the turn. Nothing to say villain won't raise, but seeing as he improves massively might continue to slowplay; if villain minraises that would be annoying, but nor sure if villain has that up his sleeve. Check/fold river w/ stack more or less intact. There, better?

    The point is, once the steal gets flatted by an equally stacked player --> pot control/not going broke w/ 2p or less.

  7. #7
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    4,248

    Default

    I was just letting you know, that's all.

    In any case, a point to be learned here by our hero is to understand that just because you have one of the larger stacks do not necessarily mean you are "deep stacked" and can bring the full book of tricks to the table. Being only 25BBs deep is not deep at all and this hand illustrates it well. A raise, a c-bet, another bet and suddenly you've been priced in to call before the river. Deep is more like 40, 50, even 60BBs, and that's only if others are also that deep (effective stacks).

    Online tournaments are rarely deep stack events, well, outside of the Sunday majors. Nothing turbo will let you stay deep long enough to make a difference, certainly not once deeper in the money. If you had been in late position, like the hijack, I'd have easily tried this move since we would have had only 4 and not 8 or 9 to move thru.

    Sometimes post-flop play is subjective. Is the c-bet bad? Maybe not. I might have checked/called a reasonable bet due to my 4-outs. I may have even check/folded. Generally I'd have c-bet and given up to any resistance, unless the bet was so small that I was priced in. With ICM in play, rarely is that the case. Usually you do not get the right place unless you can almost guarantee that you'll get paid off if you hit (meaning you implied odds are going to be in play).
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

  8. #8
    bambini's Avatar
    bambini is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    266

    Default Another MTT spot

    I think that's a really important point, Rycky: I think I saw that I was 2nd in chips in this tourney and got carried away, when in fact I wasn't particularly deep stacked.

    I'm starting to realise that there are 3 areas for me to work on:
    - tightening up more in early position. This isn't the first time in recent weeks I've made a far-too-loose EP raise.
    - learning more about ICM so I can start factoring it into my decision making.
    - not simply c-betting automatically, especially when I'm OOP and I have a weak hand/a draw with only a few outs.
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •