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Thread: Probably tilitng..

  1. #1
    bambini's Avatar
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    Default Probably tilitng..

    This was an awkward spot - With 11 BBs behind me calling wasn't really an option. With hindsight, I was slightly steaming from a bad beat and perhaps and I'm wondering if I should have folded.

    Table #51732315 - STT # 28757943
    Starting Hand #2413666342
    Start time of hand: 03 Sep 2013 20:02:47
    Last Hand #2413665520
    Game Type: HOLD'EM
    Limit Type: NO LIMIT
    Table Type: TOURNAMENT
    Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS
    Blinds are now 300 / 600
    Button is at seat 5
    Seat 1: ElliotNess2013 - 15,868
    Seat 2: badabingbambini - 6,941
    Seat 3: xfade2907 - 12,150
    Seat 4: dbhustler - 14,059
    Seat 5: seriousting - 10,982
    Shuffling Deck
    Moving Button to seat 1
    badabingbambini posts small blind (300)
    xfade2907 posts big blind (600)
    Dealing Cards
    Dealing [A c][T d] to badabingbambini
    dbhustler raises to 1,200
    seriousting folds
    ElliotNess2013 folds
    badabingbambini raises to 6,941 (all-in)
    xfade2907 folds
    dbhustler calls 6,941
    Pot sizes: 14,482
    badabingbambini shows [A c][T d]
    dbhustler shows [3 h][3 c]
    Dealing Flop [K h][Q d][4 d]
    Pot sizes: 14,482
    Dealing Turn [K s]
    Pot sizes: 14,482
    Dealing River [5 c]
    Pot sizes: 14,482
    badabingbambini has One Pair: Kings
    dbhustler has Two Pairs: Kings, 3s
    dbhustler wins 14,482 with: Two Pairs: Kings, 3s
    xfade2907 claps.
    Seat 1: ElliotNess2013 - 15,868
    Seat 2: badabingbambini - 0
    Seat 3: xfade2907 - 11,550
    Seat 4: dbhustler - 21,600
    Seat 5: seriousting - 10,982
    End of Hand #2413666342


    My rationale was that I was OOP with a mid-strength hand, so wanted to take down the pot immediately. My opponent was a bit unpredictable - we'd had a few run ins already but he had folded to a 3-bet in the past and I suspected he would do so again.

    What do you guys think? Should I have folded?
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

  2. #2
    Queso's Avatar
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    Default Probably tilitng..

    Was this a 6 handed sit and go?
    I would normally say dump it and wait for a bigger hand since the blinds just passed you and wait an orbit to see what happens, but you're five handed as it is.
    How many get paid? That makes a huge difference too.

  3. #3
    J_Verschueren's Avatar
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    I think your play is ok, actually, while both dbhustler's open and call are suspect.

    First, the minraise - fold/call strategy works best when at least some of the people left to act have <6BB stacks. When the shorties go, you're priced in to call and you'll have at least 10BB left if you lose. If someone who can take a sizable chunck out of your stack jams, you can get away for cheap with the bottom part of your range or call off with whatever part you think is ahead of villain. If, however, there's only 1 guy with 11BB and everyone else can cripple you, this tactic is just burning money as someone is bound to look down at enough to put you to the test (or at least on Pokerstars they would). So the open: ill advised, imo, due to the stacksizes. Pocket 3's is not a 20BB hand.

    Second: the call. dbhustler needs 43% chip equity to call here, just to break even. That means you'd need to be shipping 15%, which you're not (you wouldn't consider doing this with K9s, would you?). You're probably more likely to to ship 10-11%, which makes you a solid 60% favourite against villain in this spot. His hand dominates no hands in your range, which should make it an autofold for him.

    Like I said, I don't mind your play. Flatting is indeed not an option (maybe in the big blind, but... nah.) and I gather he's been active enough to warrant widening your 3-bet range. While he most certainly won't open 48% of the time in that position as his actual holding suggests, a) he opened UTG and got jammed on anyway so, regardless of how you played, he has to lend some credence to you having a strong hand and b) if he's opening threes there he's also going to show up with some worse aces and tens, i.e. you dominate a good portion of his hands and flip with most of his pairs. Unless he's got some joke range like 22+, AJo+, AJs+, you're never going to be significant underdog if called, so I think a ship is fine here.

    Congratulations on finding the fish, commiserations on losing the hand.
    Last edited by J_Verschueren; Sep 5th, 2013 at 04:27 AM.

  4. #4
    bambini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queso View Post
    Was this a 6 handed sit and go?
    I would normally say dump it and wait for a bigger hand since the blinds just passed you and wait an orbit to see what happens, but you're five handed as it is.
    How many get paid? That makes a huge difference too.
    Sorry, I thought I'd put this info into my OP :)

    It was a small 6-max MTT. Can't remember the exact figures but it was something like top 8 pay, and I was a long way from the money still.
    Quote Originally Posted by J_Verschueren View Post
    I think your play is ok, actually, while both dbhustler's open and call are suspect.

    First, the minraise - fold/call strategy works best when at least some of the people left to act have <6BB stacks. When the shorties go, you're priced in to call and you'll have at least 10BB left if you lose. If someone who can take a sizable chunck out of your stack jams, you can get away for cheap with the bottom part of your range or call off with whatever part you think is ahead of villain. If, however, there's only 1 guy with 11BB and everyone else can cripple you, this tactic is just burning money as someone is bound to look down at enough to put you to the test (or at least on Pokerstars they would). So the open: ill advised, imo, due to the stacksizes. Pocket 3's is not a 20BB hand.

    Second: the call. dbhustler needs 43% chip equity to call here, just to break even. That means you'd need to be shipping 15%, which you're not (you wouldn't consider doing this with K9s, would you?). You're probably more likely to to ship 10-11%, which makes you a solid 60% favourite against villain in this spot. His hand dominates no hands in your range, which should make it an autofold for him.

    Like I said, I don't mind your play. Flatting is indeed not an option (maybe in the big blind, but... nah.) and I gather he's been active enough to warrant widening your 3-bet range. While he most certainly won't open 48% of the time in that position as his actual holding suggests, a) he opened UTG and got jammed on anyway so, regardless of how you played, he has to lend some credence to you having a strong hand and b) if he's opening threes there he's also going to show up with some worse aces and tens, i.e. you dominate a good portion of his hands and flip with most of his pairs. Unless he's got some joke range like 22+, AJo+, AJs+, you're never going to be significant underdog if called, so I think a ship is fine here.

    Congratulations on finding the fish, commiserations on losing the hand.
    Thanks J. You're right that he had been pretty active. I was counting on inducing a fold there and based on our history I had good reason to think that he would.

    Would you mind explaining chip equity to me though, or pointing me in the direction of a neat lesson? It's something I come across every now and then but I'm not sure i fully understand it.
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

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    If you think there was a strong chance that he would fold then I can see this move. If not, I'd wait. I really am not a fan of using AT as a hand I plan on stealing with (which is what you are doing here). Finidng a PP of 99 or less was probably the best you could hope for when he calls.

    Six-handed I do not mind the open too much, I dislike the raise size since it would leave him open to the resteal from the shorty. Personally I would fold 22-55 or so UTG 6-handed. Of course, if he plans on calling the shorty it doesn't matter... if he calls with 33 he's calling more than we'd want him to.
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    Thanks Rycky. Out of interest, what range would you steal with from the SB? You're probably right though, that waiting would have been sensible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambini View Post
    Thanks J. You're right that he had been pretty active. I was counting on inducing a fold there and based on our history I had good reason to think that he would.

    Would you mind explaining chip equity to me though, or pointing me in the direction of a neat lesson? It's something I come across every now and then but I'm not sure i fully understand it.
    Chip equity is looking at the hand from a cash game perspective, i.e. "if I made this play over and over again, will it net me chips?". If you make a play which stands to win chips in the long run, given your and your opponent's ranges, it's a good play from a chip equity point of view. Far from the money (or in the money with small pay jumps), it's ok to look at plays from a chip equity point of view. Near the bubble or when there are big pay jumps, just being in the tournament starts to have value and decisions should be made with tournament equity in mind (ICM calculations). Those were the concerns Queso voiced.

    In case you don't know how to do this, I'll explain the math and how I got the ranges (this is probably on Pokerology somewhere as well).

    Villain needs to call 6941-1200 (your stack - his raise) to win 6941+600 (your stack + the blinds, where the SB is allready part of your stack), so he's getting 1.3:1 pot odds. If he calls your all-in bet the pot will contain 1.3+1=2.3 bets. To break even, in other words: to get his one bet back, he needs to win this 2.3 bet pot 1/2.3 * 100= 43% of the time. So his 3h3c needs 43% equity against your range. I then entered his hand in Equilab (because, apparently, one can't download PokerStove anymore) and played around with the range slider to figure out how wide you'd need to be before all call is breakeven.
    Last edited by J_Verschueren; Sep 5th, 2013 at 09:27 PM.

  8. #8
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    Ah OK. I knew what chip equity was then, just didn't know it was called "chip equity" ;) It was interesting to hear the distinction between chip equity-based decisions and ICM-based decisions. I think I need to learn more about ICM - I get the principle, but I don't think I know how to use it to make decisions.

    So with the hand in my other thread I was making a chip equity decision, rather than a ICM decision? Makes sense.
    "Never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city" - Coach Finstock, Teen Wolf

  9. #9
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    No. In a tournament it is always an ICM decision. In a cash game the chip values are linear, if you buy in for $10 you get $10 in chips. However, unless there is no rake, a SNG or MTT is not linear. You might pay $11 for a SNG but $1 of that is rake, so your 1500 chips is only worth $10. Also, think of this : if you win all the chips on the table of a cash game, you get all the money. In a SNG that pays out 50/30/20, winning all the chips only earns you half the money in the prize pool. Two players that lost all their chips actually get money. This is why ICM exists. {Note: the only time you can treat a SNG like a cash game is when you are heads up at the end.}

    Now the early stages of a large MTT are so far from the money that ICM has little enough effect that you can just treat it like cash, its simpler that way. Same for right after the bubble of a larger MTT. ICM is more pronounced the closer you are to the jumps in payouts and also the deeper you get.

    In a SNG the ICM effect is more pronounced and is there throughout. This is why advice for those games tend to lean toward being tighter with your decisions and would make a situation where calling in a cash game ends up being a fold in a SNG. I'm sure there are articles and videos on the subject... in fact I might have had something to do with them, I can't remember now. :)
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