Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Live Cash Trip Report

  1. #1
    Patrick 'paddyjim''s Avatar
    Patrick 'paddyjim' is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    838

    Default Live Cash Trip Report

    Popped into the Vic casino in London last night to play some poker - it didn't go well!

    I played a more laggy style than usual, probably as a result of reading ELKY's book!

    It was a 1/2 game, I bought in for 200 and it started off very well. I was playing position well and had figured out how most people were playing. I was up to about 400 when I called a raise in position with 76s. Flop is Q76. Pre-flop raiser bets, I raise, he calls. Turn is a Jack. He checks, I put him all-in for his last 115. He calls. River is a Queen(!) and he turns over AQ.

    So I'm back to about even, and run it up to about 320. Then I raise with Ac 4c and get 5 callers. Flop is Jc 7c 4h. I bet 25, guy raises to 75. I figure I'm not folding and raising is the best option, so move all-in. Guy snap calls!!! AJo (one pair!) and his hand holds, and I'm broke.

    I buy in for another 300, and then I start playing not so well. Ran it up a little but started making mistakes, especially one or two silly 'hero' calls.

    Then with about 260 I limp in the sb with 22, the bb raises to about 16 and I call. Flop is TT3, I check, he bets about 30 and I decide to make the call and see what happens. Turn is a 3, which obviously kills my hand. I check, he bets 55. Now I think he has an overpair and decide to turn my hand into a bluff, and I raise to 120. I can tell he hates the situation, but he eventually calls. River is an Ace, and for some reason I get it fixed in my head he has AA and decide to shut down. He has KK and said he would have folded if I'd moved all-in for my last 75-80. (He had me only slightly covered).

    Then I went home...
    Don't take life too seriously - you'll never get out of it alive

  2. #2
    TIME's Avatar
    TIME is offline Reasonable bet
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas area
    Posts
    3,698

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick 'paddyjim' View Post
    Then I went home...
    Sooner would have been better! To go home, that is. Seriously, you just came back and know well how varience can toy with your ego, wallet and mental well being. Shrug it off and find a donk that you can felt with a set of tens!
    To the true gambler, money is never an end in itself, but simply a tool; as language is to thought.

  3. #3
    Tim's Avatar
    Tim
    Tim is offline quintessential chopbuster
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6,809

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TIME View Post
    ....you just came back and know well how varience can toy with your ego, wallet and mental well being.
    Particularly when you turn into a lagtard!

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick 'paddyjim' View Post
    I played a more laggy style than usual, probably as a result of reading ELKY's book!
    Obviously it's good to try new things and embrace different styles and mix it up to see what works, but I'm curious as to your thinking behind this change in approach. After all, you used to play a good solid TAG game before your semi-retirement.

  4. #4
    Queso's Avatar
    Queso is offline Check To The Possible
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5,672

    Default

    Hey, Paddy, glad to see you about!

    Just a few thoughts from the WPT Cash Game Boot Camp I attended last month (if you're interested):

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick 'paddyjim' View Post
    Popped into the Vic casino in London last night to play some poker - it didn't go well!

    I played a more laggy style than usual, probably as a result of reading ELKY's book!

    It was a 1/2 game, I bought in for 200 and it started off very well. I was playing position well and had figured out how most people were playing. I was up to about 400 when I called a raise in position with 76s. Flop is Q76. Pre-flop raiser bets, I raise, he calls. Turn is a Jack. He checks, I put him all-in for his last 115. He calls. River is a Queen(!) and he turns over AQ.

    Of course, this is just a cooler.

    So I'm back to about even, and run it up to about 320. Then I raise with Ac 4c and get 5 callers. Flop is Jc 7c 4h. I bet 25, guy raises to 75. I figure I'm not folding and raising is the best option, so move all-in. Guy snap calls!!! AJo (one pair!) and his hand holds, and I'm broke.

    I'd like to know from what seat you raised with . In any event, they taught us to C-bet 100% of the time, but only with two callers or less. Almost never into a multiway pot with 3 or more callers (nut flush draw or not). In fact, this hand would have been better identified as a pre-flop speculative hand, for which the advice was to call with a suited ace (as long as it's not for more than 5% of the effective stacks, and as long as you have a good reason to believe you'll get implied odds in the hand.) Of course once having called, you are looking for the nut flush only and will fold to any bet if an ace flops with no draw.
    I'm not saying you should never raise with this hand, but the situation would be specific and not what you would normally be looking to do with it.


    I buy in for another 300, and then I start playing not so well. Ran it up a little but started making mistakes, especially one or two silly 'hero' calls.

    Then with about 260 I limp in the sb with 22, the bb raises to about 16 and I call. Flop is TT3, I check, he bets about 30 and I decide to make the call and see what happens. Turn is a 3, which obviously kills my hand. I check, he bets 55. Now I think he has an overpair and decide to turn my hand into a bluff, and I raise to 120. I can tell he hates the situation, but he eventually calls. River is an Ace, and for some reason I get it fixed in my head he has AA and decide to shut down. He has KK and said he would have folded if I'd moved all-in for my last 75-80. (He had me only slightly covered).

    Again, more salt in the wound, I'm sure, but:

    They also taught, if you're going to call with a pocket pair as your spec hand, the amount you can call preflop does go up to 8% of effective stacks... but it can't be more and still be profitable. In any case, if we've called to set mine, they teach we should ALWAYS fold if we didn't hit our set. Say we decided to call an early position raiser with pocket JJ, for instance. The flop comes 10 6 2 rainbow, and the PFR bets. They teach: FOLD. Consistency of purpose. You called to flop a set, and you didn't. It's a cash game. On to the next hand.

    In fact, calling a flop bet here turns what was a profitable preflop spec call (under 8%) into an unprofitable play instantly.

    Believe it or not, they teach that we almost never need to bluff to be profitable in cash games. Certainly not if it puts more than half our stack at risk. It just isn't necessary to expose ourselves to that much needless risk when the blinds never increase and we can always be dealt another hand.

    FWIW my win rate has increased dramatically since I attended this course. In the last two weeks of play alone ($1/2 NL) my profit has been $2,355.00 for an hourly rate of $51.20. I'm not saying this to brag, just to say that this new streamlined way of thinking is working like gangbusters so far and I'd be happy to further discuss the basic guidelines that they taught if anyone's interested.

    Tom


  5. #5
    Patrick 'paddyjim''s Avatar
    Patrick 'paddyjim' is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    838

    Default

    Thanks for the comments Queso - sorry it's taken me a while to respond...

    With the I raised from UTG. It is a speculative hand and I was able to see the flop relatively cheaply. I prefer the raise to the call or fold.

    Once the board comes I'm not sure why I wouldn't c-bet. I have a pair and the nut flush draw - a monster hand!

    The bet also enables me to 4-bet all-in, which I'm very happy to do. I think the 3-bettor's call is pretty gross. He didn't stop to think about my range, which could include over-pairs and sets as well as draws...

    Where I had 22, I sort of agree about giving up if you miss your set, but at the same time the villain is more likely to have AK than AA or KK, and I think you become very exploitable if you fold every time you miss...

    I know what you mean about never bluffing though. At the stakes I'm playing it's probably not necessary!
    Don't take life too seriously - you'll never get out of it alive

  6. #6
    Queso's Avatar
    Queso is offline Check To The Possible
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5,672

    Default

    Everything they teach is based on the principle of profitability. Every move you make, given your particular immediate situation, is either profitable, or not profitable, long term. Interestingly, this also makes you nearly unexploitable-- because no one can ever force you to make a move that is not profitable.

    I say 'nearly' because, of course, as human beings, even armed with perfect information, everyone is still going to occasionally make mistakes.

    The reason you don't raise UTG with a suited ace is because you have to flop perfect to it in order to continue. Finding that flop, tho, and having been the PFR, you're right, a bet is in order. Still, I normally would throw that hand away UTG because you have to flop too perfect to it, and you have no guarantee of implied odds to just call with it as a spec hand.

    As far as giving up with a pair when you were set mining and missed: the reason you fold is because a call now makes your original intent to set-mine unprofitable. Does it make you exploitable? Maybe in a certain sense. But not in the sense that no one can now force you to continue unprofitably. People come and go so much in cash games anyway. It isn't likely anyone can use this against you. What can they do, anyway? If you hit, you aren't folding. If you miss, they certainly aren't 'forcing' you to fold with a bet. It's your own choice.

  7. #7
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    4,248

    Default

    Well, there may be a time that there is no move that is profitable at all, just the most profitable... even if its a loss. You just would lose the least.

    OK, I know what you mean. :)

    I can see raising with a hand for more reason than just its hand strength. Deception can be a fine reason though online in a low-level cash game might not be the ideal place. A suited-ace can be one of those hands that you can try it with. I'd prefer 54c over A4c though since it can make more nut or near-nut hands.
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

  8. #8
    Queso's Avatar
    Queso is offline Check To The Possible
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5,672

    Default

    I don't disagree, conceptually, that there are more reasons to raise than hand strength, etc. In the particular hand we were discussing, I do think hand strength was the 0P's primary consideration
    Of course Poker is situational and every different situation requires a different approach or a different strategy.
    In a vacuum, however, there are foundational approaches or strategies that should guide most of our thinking. Especially in a cash game, where the blinds never rise.
    That's the only point I'm trying to make.

  9. #9
    Queso's Avatar
    Queso is offline Check To The Possible
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    5,672

    Default

    Well, there was a "suitedness" factor also to Paddy's hand, and I get that. But that just further illustrates my point. Clarity of purpose. What is your intent in the hand? If it's to trap someone with the nut flush, then it's better played as a spec hand. If it's to win with an ace, especially from under the gun, then you should have a better kicker.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •