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Thread: Starvation

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    nobetter's Avatar
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    Default Starvation

    So yesterday I was playing a large field online event with a 4-digit # of players and the one positive thing I can mention is that I (strangely) was never moved to a new table and thus had a pretty good image of my opponents.

    However I barely had the chance taking advantage of that. At the start I still had some semi-playable situations, I unsuccessfully chased a flush draw with A2s, won one decent pot with K8o -hands that don't typically belong to my range - but after some time I noticed these were actually the best opportunities I had. The blinds rose, my stack was eaten up slowly and I did not VPIP for a solid 40 hands until I was left with just about one BB which I had to invest in 76o dropping out in the process.

    I know I got a bit clumsy after noticing I was having a dry run, but I just didn't see any EV+ situations occur. The problem is that you know there should be a good chance that you hit another playable pocket hand soon, but it just doesn't come up.

    The table was also reasonably aggressive, so the opportunities to raise first were very scarce. I knew with my tight image action from me would get some respect but I didn't want to put my chips on any random hand.

    So, next time this happens I don't want to just wait until I starve. Actually, my question has two parts -

    Before I drop below 3BBs and lose nearly all my fold equity, what would be the minimum hands to shove an unopened pot with?

    If I sit on the blinds and there is one TAG raise (no calls) before me, which hands are half-reasonable shoving with if I'm below 10BBs?
    Last edited by nobetter; Sep 26th, 2011 at 10:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobetter View Post
    So, next time this happens I don't want to just wait until I starve. Actually, my question has two parts -

    Before I drop below 3BBs and lose nearly all my fold equity, what would be the minimum hands to shove an unopened pot with?
    You really haven`t much FE with 3x as it`s not much more than a standard raise, it may even be the standard raise. To have any kind of FE you`re going to need 5x or 6x at minimum and far better to be 10x+. There are times I`d consider jamming 15x maybe even a little more.

    Minimum hands? Well that`s going to depend on your position and your stack size. From UTG your range is going to be much smaller than from the button or in a BvB situation. With say 10x I would happily shove A3o in a BvB situation but I`m not shoving it from UTG.

    For BvB situations you can take a look at Nash Equilibrium charts/calculator
    HoldemResources.net: HeadsUp Nash Equilibrium
    HoldemResources.net: HeadsUp Nash Calculator

    I`ll leave it there for my reply. I daresay Rycky and J will have much more to write on the subject.


    Quote Originally Posted by nobetter View Post
    If I sit on the blinds and there is one TAG raise (no calls) before me, which hands are half-reasonable shoving with if I'm below 10BBs?
    It`s tough to answer this question because it`s quite general. There are so many factors that have to be considered. Did the TAG raise from UTG or the button? How big is his stack, can he afford to fold or is his stack so big it`s unlikely he will fold? If you have 10x your range is a little different to if you have 3x. With 10x you actually have the opportunity to fold whereas with 3x if you`re in the BB then you probably have to call with ATC.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  3. #3
    RyckyRych's Avatar
    RyckyRych is offline Retired Micro Grinder
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    Default

    I want the hand history on this one.
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

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    I basically feel like I've lost all my FE at 10BB or sometimes even 12 or 13. At least in the games that I play.

    There's no question, you can't sit around waiting for cards. So it isn't the hands so much as the situations that I look for; what is my position, what is my image, who will fold to a raise, etc. Then I start thinking about whether my hand will have any chance if it's called. I'm usually never going to be more than a 3:1 dog if I am called, with the hands I choose to play. Again, it all depends.

    In very general terms (subject to specific reads, of course), here are the hands I'll re-raise all-in with, out of the blinds @ 10BB's or less:

    If the original raise came from EP: 66+, AK, AQs

    If the original raise came from MP: 66+, AT+, KQ

    If the original raise came from the cutoff or the button: 22+, A7+, KJ+, A2s+, KQs+.

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    Well I often play turbo tourneys where usually everyone is below 20BB quickly so you still can make someone lay down a hand they would otherwise play if you have a tight image and shove with 5BBs. From my experience at least. This tourney I was talking about wasn't turbo but blind levels were 5min each so it was still fast paced.

    And sorry that the questions I asked were a bit generic, here are the "best" starting hands I got that I folded preflop:


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    I can see folding all three of these hands as you are behind all the ranges of the raiser. The A8d was tempting since you are so low in chips.

    I still want to see the entire hand history to see how you got as low as 1BB though. We might learn something about preserving FE here.
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post
    I can see folding all three of these hands as you are behind all the ranges of the raiser. The A8d was tempting since you are so low in chips.

    I still want to see the entire hand history to see how you got as low as 1BB though. We might learn something about preserving FE here.
    +1

    Ship Rycky the HH, it has the possibility of making an interesting video and provoking some discussion.
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    If you think that a video where the hero plays two hands (which I already mentioned in the OP) and then folds everything preflop until the end is interesting, then ok...

    The only other hand that I thought about playing (and in retrospect probably should have played) was an A9o I unfortunately got dealt UTG. I don't play below A10 from that position so although I was already down to 6BBs I didn't shove.

    About sending the HH, should I just copy + paste hand by hand from HEM or is there a more easy way? And do (approx.) 50 hands fit into one PM?
    Last edited by nobetter; Sep 27th, 2011 at 06:47 PM.

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    If its on Poker Stars just request the HH right from the software and they email it to you almost instantly. I think other rooms may be able to do that as well.

    In any event, just email it to the addy I'm about to PM you.
    I do a new thing now. Hidden Content

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    Oh, and FTR, A9o UTG at a full table with 6BBs is close but a nice, disciplined fold UNLESS the table is tighter than 88+/AQ+ or so in calling you (which I doubt). One factor that Nash/the math doesn't account for is the fact that you are about to eat the blinds, which adds to the argument for pushing.

    Without antes I fold. With antes I go.
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