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Thread: A New Perspective

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    nobetter's Avatar
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    Default A New Perspective

    So last week I started playing Turbo NL SNGs, always the 30 player ones with buy ins from 1,20-5,50$. Initially it was just because I was frustrated with cash games, but then I noticed I could have actually found my niche among all the different variants. What I like about this mode is that you won't play for an hour without getting anything out of it, mostly these tourneys take a maximum 45 minutes to finish.

    Most importantly, for the first time in my short poker career I see myself making money, my bankroll was getting into dangerous territory last week but now I've doubled it!

    I don't know why it's so different to other game modes, but I think when the blinds increase so fast and everyone's chips are at stake I develop an odd comfort steering through the madness.

    As for a very basic strategy, I usually build a tight image at the start (around 10% VPIP) and then, when the blinds get actually worth stealing in the mid phase, try showing more presence. In case my stack is becoming small I also developed a pretty decent feeling for when it's time to shove.
    I think if you have the big stack at the final table you shouldn't become overly aggressive until the very end because the ranks that really pay off where you multiply your buy-ins are #1-3 and it wouldn't be worth to risk dropping out before, just take advantage of the edge you have by waiting for the moment where you're sure to have the best hand.

    Of course there's dozens of other things you need to consider, and seeing as I'm that new to this game mode I surely haven't gotten grips with all of them yet, so would be great to hear what aspects of this game mode you consider to be vital and what kind of tactics and moves are essential.
    Last edited by nobetter; Sep 5th, 2011 at 03:14 PM.

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    Rycky is probably your man for this subject. If you haven`t done so already you should take a look at his videos. I`m not sure he`s covered a 30 player sng but he talks a lot about push/fold strategy which is what you`ll be playing a lot in these kind of games.

    It might be worth taking a look at Moshman`s sng book too. Although it`s dealing with standard 9/10 player sngs a lot of the strategy will be applicable to 30 player sngs, especially at the final table. If you`re interested in an e-copy drop me a pm.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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    I would think these would play similar to a 45-man game would, just a little quicker and with a slightly flatter payout structure. Seems you have the right general idea on these. Of course, it might be fun to take a look at a hand history for one of these games if it will work in the hand replayer I have. I could use the practice. :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post
    Of course, it might be fun to take a look at a hand history for one of these games if it will work in the hand replayer I have. I could use the practice. :)
    Yeah, it could be an interesting video... if you're interested NB?

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    You mean the entire HH from such a tournament?

    To be honest, I've noticed myself my playing isn't that flawless yet, I've always made one mistake of medium severity at least. And that awareness recently has me playing tighter and tighter. That's my actual problem at the moment, you need to take opportunities with marginal hands in such a game or you will most often go down before the cash ranks.

    I suppose it's very similar to a 45p Turbo SNG so it would be nice to hear about your experiences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobetter View Post
    You mean the entire HH from such a tournament?

    To be honest, I've noticed myself my playing isn't that flawless yet, I've always made one mistake of medium severity at least. And that awareness recently has me playing tighter and tighter. That's my actual problem at the moment, you need to take opportunities with marginal hands in such a game or you will most often go down before the cash ranks.

    I suppose it's very similar to a 45p Turbo SNG so it would be nice to hear about your experiences.
    Yes, the entire HH. Either its on your hard drive or the room can email you one if you request it.

    You might not be able to play "flawless" poker, but if you limit the bad mistakes to borderline decisions and do it more often than your opponents, you win. Experience comes into play here. Sure, you might make a move that is incorrect by the math, but as long as its a close miss it won't be the end of the world.
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    For the moment I'm honestly not trying to be correct with mathematic precision, I don't think I'm ready for that yet and I'm more of an instinctive player, but I try to establish and maintain strategic consistency. I know both these aspects of the game - mathematics and strategy - are connected, but at the moment I focus on being aware of my own image at the table and making decisions that are rooted in monitoring my opponents' playing style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nobetter View Post
    For the moment I'm honestly not trying to be correct with mathematic precision
    Never said you had to be precise but you do need to be aware of it. Some players just "know" by experience and review of their play. We can't be sitting there with a calculator or an ICM website for every decision.

    You DO need to become more aware of these spots when you study things away from the table. A decent player does their homework either by looking over their hands, posting on a forum about spots they encounter (like here!) or reading other books, blogs and articles.

    Some players are VERY good at doing the math at the tables just thru playing hundreds, no, thousands of SNGs and MTTs over a period of time and then going over the spots they knew were close decisions. After a while these things become second nature and their decisions do become pretty darn precise (Jennifear is one I have seen personally be able to do this). Of course, your reads and other intangibles might sway a mathematical decision one way or the other but even by doing so you are still adjusting the "math" at hand.

    You don't need to be a slave to the math but all solid players are at least aware of it, even if they don't think of it in numbers. The thing that matters most is that you account for it one way or another.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobetter View Post
    For the moment I'm honestly not trying to be correct with mathematic precision, I don't think I'm ready for that yet and I'm more of an instinctive player, but I try to establish and maintain strategic consistency. <snip>
    I agree with your sentiment. Math is a key factor, but math also equals exploiting small edges. Purely math based play is a rollercoaster ride with little payout except for the weakest of weakest games, so there is a pressing need to incorporate the strategical and psychological elements of the game.

    However, in (multitable) sit&go's with fast blind structures, there are situations where, based on your hand and the stacksizes of the people still to act, there are situations where, if you ship, your opponents are screwed no matter what they do unless they have kings or aces (so, sometimes, your hand doesn't even matter), but, likewise, also situations where you're screwed if shipped upon, unless you have a true monster. Learning to recognise these situations (and erring on the side of caution when you're the one calling off a significant amount of chips) is a key part of winning in these tournaments, IMO (which is what you asked about in your OP).

    Generally, you want to be the one raising all-in, not the one calling (almost) all-in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyckyRych View Post
    Some players are VERY good at doing the math at the tables just thru playing hundreds, no, thousands of SNGs and MTTs over a period of time and then going over the spots they knew were close decisions. After a while these things become second nature /
    Yes, that's pretty much what I'm going for. Recently I've played around 3 of these SNGs per day and I hope experience will make my decisions more and more solid over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by J_Verschueren View Post
    However, in (multitable) sit&go's with fast blind structures, there are situations where, based on your hand and the stacksizes of the people still to act, there are situations where, if you ship, your opponents are screwed no matter what they do unless they have kings or aces (so, sometimes, your hand doesn't even matter), but, likewise, also situations where you're screwed if shipped upon, unless you have a true monster. Learning to recognise these situations (and erring on the side of caution when you're the one calling off a significant amount of chips) is a key part of winning in these tournaments, IMO (which is what you asked about in your OP).

    Generally, you want to be the one raising all-in, not the one calling (almost) all-in.
    Advice on recognizing situations like these is one of the reasons I opened this thread. It's not too hard for me to reach the shove/fold phase but the difference between finishing 5th/6th or 1st/2nd is enormous regarding the pay-out and I don't want to let just luck make the difference.

    It took me some time, but I realized myself you will want to be the one that's shoving and not the one that's calling a push, but there are some situations where it can be very profitable. For example re-shoving players who go all in from the UTG with just about two BBs left can be very profitable because you know this is their last chance to take the initiative and they may do that with a wide range of hands, and if nobody else calls you get the blinds and the antes as well when winning the pot.

    But, for example, I've noticed the game at the table getting extremely clumsy just before the cash ranks are reached (so when there's 7 or 8 players left) - usually one player shoves or raises and the others fold, or everyone folds to the BB. I sometimes get the feeling I should really be able to profit from this situation but usually I play very similar to the others, which may be reasonable but it doesn't give me the edge...

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