Lots and Lots of Questions

[Queso]

I had some interesting situations come up last night in a $50 live tournament I was playing in. Most of you know my local casino has the electronic PokerTek tables, where you see your hole cards on an individual screen (no one else can see them), and your choices pop up just like in online poker. In cash games, they give you a forty second timer to make your decisions. I was surprised they had the same feature in the tournaments as well, because it's like constantly having the clock called on you, and it made a difference in a hand I played just before making the final table.

But the first situation though, was this: about a half-hour in (when I was off to a pretty good start, actually), they had a problem with one of the electronic tables, and so had to move everyone to a new table. When this happened, somehow all the chip data was lost~! And so that whole table was disqualified-- out of the tournament. They pacified that table by giving them vouchers for a future tournament. (They had already announced over the loudspeaker the payout structure and the prizes-- from a starting field of 37, four would get paid @ 770 for first, 5 hundred something for second, and so on.) I guess that was a pretty good way of handling it, and despite a few grumblings, play went on. I was actually pretty happy to think I was one table closer to the money all of a sudden.

Then they announced that the prize structure would now change: only three would get paid, @ 580 for first, 3 something for second, etc.

The place went nuts. I felt they had no business doing that. #1., It wasn't our fault as players. #2. Whether they went out by being eliminated, or by being disqualified, why should that affect the rest of us? Refund their money and comp them for the buffet or whatever to placate them, but leave the rest of us alone.

Some said "Give all of us our money back, AND a voucher for a future tournament." Some said "leave the structure as it is-- AND add another five hundred to the tournament for our trouble!"

Anyway, there was no relenting, and they finally decided to actually start the tournament over. But by this point, 8 had left altogether, leaving us a starting field of 29, and an new payout structure anyway. Not to mention we had a VERY pissed of chip leader. The whole ridiculous debacle took over an hour to sort out but anyway, off we were into tourney #2.

What do you guys think?

[Queso]

Part II LOL



I played very smart and patient (LOL unlike the forum game the other day! I would tell you all an amusing story about exactly where my head was on Sunday but I know no one cares. :) I ended up taking 2nd place in a 90 man KO I was involved in, so that was my consolation.) Eventually I found myself wrapped up in a hand just as the other table was breaking and they were coming to join us as the final table.

Three of us limped into a flop when I had A9 clubs in the cutoff. The flop had 2 clubs on it, the shortie BB bet about half pot, got called by the second limper, and when it got to me I 3x'd the BB, who folded. My only problem was, for whatever reason, I hadn't noticed the caller in between--- he had mumbled something about how bad his hand was, and I thought he had folded! So after the BB's fold, I was waiting for the chips to ship to me, but it didn't happen... I thought the table had frozen up (happens occasionally), so I sat there waiting for my chips to arrive electronically when I suddenly saw what had happened-- he had shoved on me for all my chips!!

By now, the forty second clock had ticked down to about 20 seconds, and I had to decide to call for my tournament life, or fold and make my first final table ever at a live tournament (yay!). I felt rushed and forced and angry that I didn't have as much time as I wanted to make my decision, so I just folded. I immediately regretted it, as not only did I have 9 flush outs with 2 cards to come, but any ace would have won for me as well (he had pocket Jacks). Does this timer thing seem ridiculous to you?

And what about the hand? Is that an insta-call, or was it a good, patient fold?

I busted in 7th place when, with just under 10BB's, I found AK and shoved it into 22. I had 11,000 in chips (600/1200), and the caller had about 17,000. Was that a good call on his part?

[NobleTruths]

I personally do not like electronic live poker. Or at least the ones where you have electronic chips. The psychology of real chips that you have to commit to the pot is an important part of the game. By removing the physical action of betting, more donk play is likely. And while playing against donks is profitable, too many in the game (like micro buy-ins) makes this challenging.

In regards to the "busted" tourney that had to be restarted, I would interpret this as a breach of a legal contract. The rules were outlined before the tourney started (including payout). A failure on their part should, by no means, negate those rules; unless they had another rule in place that would allow them to take such a measure if an electronic failure should occur. The long of it is, since when has a casino tried to make things fair for their clients?

As for the AK vs 22 hand, PokerStove shows that with likely shove-holdings for your situation, villain is only a 53-47% dog. If no one else was likely to go out any time soon, and he was in next to last place, then it was a good call on his part.

[RyckyRych]

On Part I... wow, I think I might demand my money back plus compensation, especially if I had chipped up at all. I'd want my equity, plus some.

Part II. Hard to tell what the action was exactly, but the A9c sounds like a call. I might argue a few things.

A. it might have been a mistake to limp along (I can't tell)

B. I don't think raising the flop and folding to a shove there is a good idea, either call with your draw or go all the way. You need to plan ahead better and there is no reason you can't be playing just one table. I also hate your raise size from what I can understand... much too small.

C. The timer is your issue. Its just like online turbos and you should be more than use to it. I do understand that you thought the guy folded and I've never played any of these tables before so I have no clue what they are like to play on. Still, its one table... no reason to not be paying attention.

On the AK hand, standard push. Whether 22 is a call depends on a few things like your position, his position, and even the stacks of the rest of the table. If only three are getting paid with seven left, you still have to gather some chips. If you pushed from the button I'd say 22 is a call. Outside of that I'm not really liking it.

[RyckyRych]

Originally Posted by NobleTruths

As for the AK vs 22 hand, PokerStove shows that with likely shove-holdings for your situation, villain is only a 53-47% dog. If no one else was likely to go out any time soon, and he was in next to last place, then it was a good call on his part.

We can't use PS so exact... the villain has to use a RANGE of hands and figure his chances from there. Also, the chips you gain are not worth as much as the chips you stand to lose. You need to be sure your expected win percentage makes up for that potential loss in equity. Basic ICM, but I think you might have an idea of what I mean.

This is why I think position is important. Queso is going to shove a much wider range of hands from the button than he would if be UTG, and he should be. Also, whether or not antes were in play makes a difference.

[Tim]

Wow, what an utter shambles. That's one way to lose customers.

I'm no fan of electronic poker tables, even though I've never played on one. But don't they have a restart button? This usually works when my PC screws up.

And as for the timer - yeah you should be used to it by now. But do they give you an option for extending the time, similar to an online poker site?

[Queso]

Thanks guys.

@Noble: We've had this discussion on here before at length concerning live cards vs. electronic tables. Don't get me wrong, obviously there's nothing like live cards and chips. I've been playing down at that casino for a year and a half now, and honestly, that was the first massive screw-up I have witnessed. I actually like the tables for several reasons:

1. More casual players (and even people who've never played before) are interested in sauntering in from the casino and 'giving it a try'.
2. All of the necessary info needed to calculate pot odds, stack sizes, pot amounts, exactly what each player has in front of them etc. is readily and instantly available onscreen. Also, you can access your own stats for the session in real time-- percentage of flops seen, showdown percentage, hands won, avg pot size, etc.
3. Pots are awarded instantly and correctly. No one misses out on a pot because they don't realize their hand would have played (as I've seen happen Casino Aztar in Evansville, Indiana. A guy lost out on his half of a $180 dollar pot because he thought he was outkicked. Once we pointed it out, it was too late.)
4. You get much more hands per hour than live cards.
5. There is no dealer to tip.

Last night's situation truly was bizarre, not the norm at all, and interesting I think because of what the future holds for this aspect of the sport. It's only a matter of time, I think, before we see a WPT final or somesuch on TV with these tables.

@Rycky: I limped along there because I'd been raising and getting no action for quite a while. I just wanted to mix it up and see what might come out on the flop. It might have been a bad move regardless. (LOL I thought you might poke at that one).

I think you misunderstood my raise size... I didn't mean to say I bet 3X the BB, meaning whatever the blind was at the time... I meant that I 3X raised the half-pot bet that the player who was in the big blind at the time had made. I was nowhere near pot-committed though, and when the player in the middle shoved on me, he had me covered, so it's not like I could 'go for the draw'... it was 'call for all my chips and hope to spike a club'. I'm still on the fence, I'm not sure if I should have risked it all there on a whim and a hope, or fold as I did, to live another day and make the final table. Even with the fold, I was in sixth place as we started the final table.

Yes, I understand how to play with a timer as in online play. My point is, just because these are electronic tables, doesn't mean we should have to have a timer in live tournament play. In what live tournament have you guys ever played when they set an egg timer next to you set to forty seconds on every hand? I think it's ridiculous.

Yes, antes were in play, as I said the blinds at that time were 600/1200, so I was just under 10BB, and the villain was a little bit over at 17,000. I was in the SB, he was on the button. Sorry, I should have specified that. I'm not unhappy with the way I played it, but I think since his call would have plunged him down to 6000 in chips (5BB's) if he lost, it wasn't a very good play on his part. I understand the flip scenario with a pocket pair, but ducks? Really? He had to know I either had a bigger pocket pair (highly likely) or big overs which have a good chance to hit. Pocket twos? I don't think much of that call. But I was just wondering what you guys thought.

[Queso]

Originally Posted by Tim

Wow, what an utter shambles. That's one way to lose customers.

I'm no fan of electronic poker tables, even though I've never played on one. But don't they have a restart button? This usually works when my PC screws up.

And as for the timer - yeah you should be used to it by now. But do they give you an option for extending the time, similar to an online poker site?

Sorry, Tim. No, they don't, it's forty seconds per hand, and that's that.

[RyckyRych]

"I limped along there because I'd been raising and getting no action for quite a while."

Who gives a shit if you "get no action"? You make a play either because its optimal or not, not because you crave action.

I'm not saying the limp was bad... a lot depends on how the table was playing, how deep every was, and your position. For all I know limping WAS the optimal play. I'm not usually raising A9c over more than one limper, and when I do we both need to be in LP for it to happen.


"I meant that I 3X raised the half-pot bet"

Hmm, maybe not bad then. Using 100/200 as an example I'm saying there is 1000 in the pot (3 limpers and the blinds). If he bets 500 and there is a call, there is 2000 in the pot, you make it 1500 (3500 in the pot). You are still giving 3.5:1 odds to the first guy and if he calls the second guy will get even better odds (4.5:1). If you are IP on this hand this might work if everyone is deep enough.

The reason I say that is while you are giving decent odds to call, you are putting yourself in a position to potentially buy 2 cards to hit your draw. If they call and then check the turn to you, you could then check and try to draw to your flush (or even ace) on the river. Paying 1500 for 2 cards might not be too bad, plus there will be times that both these guys will fold (FE!). Not sure you were thinking of this idea though.

Still I think that once you make this bet, you gotta go with it unless the shove is just sick-huge. Without knowing the stacks and pot amount, I can't tell if its a call or not. Probably is.

"Yes, antes were in play, as I said the blinds at that time were 600/1200, so I was just under 10BB, and the villain was a little bit over at 17,000. I was in the SB, he was on the button."

Shit, if I were the button I probably have shoved. If the BB was huge, I might raise to 2700 or something, folding to a big BB shove if I were in 2nd or 3rd. But if everyone is under 15BBs with antes? I'm shoving a LOT of hands there. No way he should be raise/folding to a guy under 10BBs here.

[RyckyRych]

"He had to know I either had a bigger pocket pair (highly likely) or big overs which have a good chance to hit."

Forgot about this. If this were the true bubble I might agree. 7 left and 3 pay? Nah, not so much. Still, did this guy limp? Raise 3x? Min-raise? Might make a difference. If he went 3x he shouldn't fold.

I might play with this more later though... might be interesting.