Bankroll Management and Cashout System

[RyckyRych]

Again, this is not something I came up with but rather something I have adopted from Jennifear, an online poker pro/teacher that I had the great fortune to be a student and later a friend. I'll type out how I've adapted her system in my own words here. I'm at work so hopefully I'll be able to finish it in time and not leave anything out. :)

As far as the bankroll management its nothing earth-shattering, you can apply your own rules and break it down how you want. What I use is this:

1-10 player fields (SNGs): 60 buy-ins
11-50 players: 70 BIs
51-90 players: 80 BIs
91-180 players: 100 BIs
181-360 players: 125 BIs
361 or more players: 150 BIs

Now I'm not a daily grinder by any means so some of my BI requirements are lower than what a grinder/pro would need. Generally a pro would need a more protected bankroll of 200 BIs for the large MTTs. You can raise or lower these figures to fit your risk of ruin tolerances.

So, using my BI requirements, if you have a BR of $1200 you could play a $20 SNG (thats total, including rake... Cake has $18.40+1.60 SNGs) or a $11+1 180-man SNG, and so forth. I'm sure that's simple enough for everyone to get, but I'm putting it down for completeness.

Now, as I said in the other thread I use a cashout method that is based on volume. In this way you will pay yourself as you play while at the same time still enable you to grow your bankroll as you beat each level of the game. This is done by paying yourself a percentage of the buy-ins you pay and this is also broken down by the size of the games:

1-10 player fields (SNGs): 3% of BIs paid
11-50 players: 4%
51-90 players: 5%
91-180 players: 6%
181-360 players: 7%
361 or more players: 8%

For instance, say you play ten $11+1 180-man SNGs. You would then "pay" yourself $7.20 for those games you've played {(10*$12)*.06}. What this does is that it ensures that you are getting paid a set amount for each game you play regardless of the whether you are winning or losing at the time. Also, when coupled with your BR management it will help tell you when you can move up or, if needed, move down.

For example, say we start off with a $400 BR and feel we are competent enough to play the $5.50 SNGs on Stars. After 100 games, we've struck some bad luck/variance and we're down $59, putting our BR at $341. At that number we could still continue playing the $5.50s since we'd still have 62 BIs... but wait! We need to pay ourselves $19.50 for volume, reducung our BR to $321.50. Since we've not been successful at the $5.50s, our BR would tell us its time to move down.

What this does is ensures that you are beating your current game at a set ROI before moving up in stakes. For SNGs I've set the rate at 3% but you can adjust that . So if I beat the game for a +10% ROI, 3% of that goes in my pocket while the other 7% grows my bankroll. If I'm not maintaining at least a 3% ROI then I'll stay at that level until I do.

Of course, we'll be playing more than just SNGs most of the time. I also play MTTs on the weekends and its those larger-field games that really can make a bankroll jump. This is why the percentage is set higher for the larger games but not so large that you can't take advantage of the big jumps in your roll.

As we all know, we still have to continue to evaluate our game as we go. Just because your BR guidelines might say you can play a $55 SNG it doesn't mean you have to play at that level.

Most players that take the game at least somewhat seriously get some type of rakeback and nearly everyone is clearing some type of bonus at one point or another. Since both of these are paid to you as a result of your volume (not profit or loss) you would pay 100% of all your rakeback and bonuses to yourself in your cashout.

Generally that's all there is to the system. There are other minor things that can be considered. For instance, if I make a deposit on a site with the goal of taking advantage of a reload bonus, I'll be sure to add that deposit amount to my next cashout to "balance the books". If you are only playing on one site you might have to wait until the promotion is over before doing that so that you don't void that promotion by cashing out early. I play on 6 different sites so I have some flexibility in this regard.

If I've left something out or I was unclear on any point, I'll edit this post as I remember them. Otherwise please feel free to post any questions or comments!

[holdemm1]

That is a great way of doing things. For me the problem would be I have to make a minimum of $250 per withdrawal. So a lot of times it wouldn't be feasible to use it. But maybe I am not thinking right about it. I am going to crunch some numbers and see if it is feasible to use for me. Was this meant to be just for the casual player?

[RyckyRych]

That is not a problem, you don't have to withdraw daily. You can naturally wait until your cashout is high enough to make the minimum withdrawal or after a set time period, like one a week or every Tuesday and Friday... whatever works.

And ANYBODY could use this. Using this method you could actually figure out exactly how much volume you'd need to play in order to pay yourself $xxx per day/week/month.

[malfunctioning]

Sounds interesting. I will input another page to my spreadsheet to run some numbers on it. See if this would work for me or what I will need to change. I will post my results if anyone is interested.

[Tim]

Excellent post Rycky!

I'd never really thought of a system like this, paying yourself based on buy-ins. It seems more aimed at the real grinders than the casual player, but as you say, people can adjust to their own needs - a tweak here and there and you have a great system to follow. Top stuff.

[holdemm1]

I found this an copied it tell me what you think.



Per Fox’s initial definitions, use the “Pro” column if going bust would be devastating because you derive your income from poker; “Protected” if replacing your bankroll would be difficult; “Unprotected” if you’re taking a shot and your bankroll is easily replaced:


------------------------PRO--------------PROTECTED -----UNPROTECTED
Limit Cash Games -----550-700 Big Bets -400-500 Big Bets --200-300 Big Bets
NL/PL Cash Games-----45-65 Buy-ins-----30-45 Buy-ins-----20-30 Buy-ins
SNGs -----------------65-75 Entries -----40-50 Entries-----20-30 Entries
MTTs -----------------200-250 Entries---100-150 Entries---30-50 Entries


The common mistake is considering yourself to be a category higher than you truly are. If you do not derive your living from playing poker, in my opinion, you should never treat your bankroll as if you do. Yeah, it sucks trying to deposit money in the era of the UIGEA. But being out-of-action to the casual Protected player isn’t devastating; you just have to scramble around. A Pro has no life if they don’t have a bankroll.

Ranges may be stretched a little bit to expand how many games you can play as you move up the ladder. For example, a Protected player with a $4,000 bankroll really shouldn’t play lower than a $30+3 buy-in tournament. Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of tournaments in the $30-$40 range online. But between the $20+2 180-mans on PokerStars, and the wide range of $24+2 tournaments and 90-mans on Full Tilt Poker, you could reasonably step back and play to your heart’s content without considering it a “profit loser.”

I highly recommend, if you’re in a comparable bankroll “no man’s land,” to take shots on the higher edge as well. With a $4,000 bankroll, not only would I play at $20+2 and $24+2 tournaments, but also the $50+5 nightly tournaments on Stars and FTP, and possibly the $69+6 Full Tilt tournaments as well. My bankroll guidance is based on our average buy-in, not any one maximum or minimum value. If you want to take a shot in the Bodog $100+9, go ahead…but play a little lower in some other events to balance things out.

Consider rebuy tournaments at 7 times the original buy-in for bankroll management purposes. Sometimes you can float through with just your original investment; other times you’re re-buying every other hand. For the most part, it averages out to your buy-in & rebuy to start, two double rebuys, and the add-on at the end – a total of seven buy-ins. This means the $3r on Stars is a $21 MTT on your chart, the $5r a $35 MTT. For the mid-stakes player, these are valuable tournaments, because they both fall close to the $30-40 “no man’s land.”

You should also account for the size of the field. Larger fields have higher variance, and therefore, your bankroll needs better protection. Let’s say I have $1,500, and I consider myself a Protected player. I would not regularly play the $24+2 MTTs on Full Tilt, where the fields range between 1,000 and 1,500 players. However, I’d play the $20+2 180-mans on Stars, or a $20 MTT on UltimateBet, where the average field may be 300 or 400 people.

The time you have at the tables is valuable. Make the most of it.


(taken from Poker Articles - Are You a Bankroll Nit?)

[RyckyRych]

That article by Fox is considered one of the staples of online poker and its referenced a lot. You could go by that and have no problems whatsoever. My numbers are not my suggestions, far from it. I just put in what I use for an example. You can adjust the BIs to fit how you feel it should be and of course either expand or contract how I broke down field sizes.

This system is just a way to help you be able to grow your bankroll but see some of the fruits of your labor (cash!). If you play for a living, its like paying yourself based on piecework (volume).

[malfunctioning]

I inserted numbers close to the same as yours into my spreadsheet. My withdrawls decreased in size. On the other hand I could see where it would stabilize my bankroll a little more then it has been at times.

[Patrick 'paddyjim']

Originally Posted by RyckyRych

Again, this is not something I came up with but rather something I have adopted from Jennifear, an online poker pro/teacher that I had the great fortune to be a student and later a friend. I'll type out how I've adapted her system in my own words here. I'm at work so hopefully I'll be able to finish it in time and not leave anything out. :)

Hey, I had a lesson from Jennifear too!

I must admit, as this is not my main source of income, I don't often cash out. I usually tend to make big withdrawals to pay for holidays, etc.

I will be cashing out a few thousand dollars ready for my Vegas trip in a few weeks ;-)

[RyckyRych]

Good luck in Vegas when you get to go, Patrick!

mal, if it decreases your cashouts that means your bankroll would be increasing, meaning you could move up in stakes sooner (assuming you felt your game was ready).

Now, what you could do is put a "ceiling" on your bankroll if you were going to stay at the same level for a while, or its the level you are going to grind long-term. In that case, you'd make the cashouts as normal. After that, if your bankroll is above your "ceiling" you'd also cashout anything over that number.

So, say we grind SNGs and decide that we need to maintain a $5000 bankroll for the level of games we are grinding. In our first cashout period we turn a nice $500 profit and say our cashout would have been $150. Since we out performed our cashout we could take out the entire $500 and start with our $5000 bankroll again.

Now, if we only made $100 profit, we'd still take the $150 cashout but our BR would be at $4950. We'd "owe" our BR $50 to get it back to our ceiling but we'd do that with profit... we would always pay ourselves for volume. So, if the next cashout period showed a $250 profit for the same $150 cashout, we'd have a BR increase for $100, bringing us back over the ceiling at $5050. Then we'd pay ourselves $200 (the $150, plus $50 for being over our ceiling).

Just another way of using the plan.